True Health Is Health of Being

[Music] [Singing] True Health
is Health of Being An Interview
with Sri Mooji by Luke Sniewski [Interviewer:] Hi. Can I get
a quick sound check. Can you introduce
yourself to camera in front. [Mooji:] Can I
introduce myself. [Laughter] OK. So I believe
you are having an interview
with me today on health and I liked
it because it was
not specifically about physical health. I’m not the most
physically healthy. Everyone here
is much more healthy than me physically. But I felt what was
appealing about your approach was
it was much broader or in any case you wanted to
ask someone like myself about health and so I was very
much attracted to that because I could
speak about what I would
call ‘true health’ which is
health of Being, health of spirit, health that comes
from Self-knowledge. [I:] Can you
elaborate a little bit on that? What is the
difference between healthy being and being physically healthy? [M:] OK. This is just
my own terminology and the way in which
I interpret them. Oh, you want me
to repeat the question? [I:] No. Just go ahead. [M:] I thought you just
doing sound check. You already
right into it. [Laughter] You ask what
is the difference between healthy living
at a physical, in its
physical aspect and is
there another aspect of
health beyond say its physical connotations. For me, real health would be to be
in total harmony or alignment with your inmost Being. That
would be health for me. Physical health
plays a part and is a very
important part it’s the popular. Even when
we speak about yoga most people,
certainly in the West, they would
feel that yoga is a kind of,
more to do with physical asanas
or postures and stretching and all
of these things. But the term yoga is much broader
than the physical definition
of yoga, the physical
aspect of yoga. Yoga means to bring together
into unity two things. So, it already
starts on the premise that there are two
things to be brought together. It does
not say there’s only
one thing that appear
to have become two and then
reintegrate itself into its
original One-ness. And yoga has
many different aspects, there are
aspects of yoga like karma yoga, you might
have heard of this which primarily is about
selfless activity. There is jnana yoga which is the yoga
of knowledge or perfect wisdom, this is expressed
in the form of Self knowledge and the
emphasis is on self inquiry, to look
into one’s inner nature. There’s bhakti yoga which means
the yoga of devotion, surrender to the Supreme Being and then
there is the yoga
like we know or hear of Iyenger, ashtanga yoga these yogas
which are more popularly, people more
in West are more familiar
with that form of yoga. But the
question was about health and in our concept,
primarily in the West yoga or health is about our
physical health, physical well-being and people
do a lot of exercises make sure
they are taking the right
kind of food, there’s a lot of information
available about how to
live healthily from the physical aspect of our life. But let’s imagine someone who was physically very healthy ate well,
exercised well in the prime
of their physical life, but inwardly was very
say depressed or have self-destructive
tendencies. Because these kind of
paradoxes are there, there are people
who are very physically fit, very
physically healthy, but inwardly unhappy, very much introverted and dark even. So I could not say
that such a person is in full health. They may
be able to do handstands
on one finger but that
would not amount to health
for me. Health will
have to be that someone internally
also is fit. A mind that is, I would
say calm, and clear and wise. Someone whose way is still inwardly, loving, open, kind, I would
include these also in health. [I:] You talked about selfless acts as being a foundation of
karma yoga. How does one … How can you,
when the mind is constantly
playing tricks on you, and constantly rationalizing and justifying actions and labeling
them as selfless, but they’re
really selfish. How can you really
determine if something is truly selfless? [M:] It is very
difficult to determine even in
one’s own self much less others whether something
is truly selfless. And by selfless
we have to say because some
people are not familiar even with
the term selfless. It means
to not be concerned, not to be
psychologically self-conscious
of how you’re coming across and how well
you’re doing and if you’re being
perceived by others to be kind
or not. So we can put that out
there like this. How do we,
how can we be clear how can
we be sure that our actions don’t contain
a kind of a selfishness or we have
a selfish motive behind our seemingly unselfish and kind and
compassionate gestures? I’d say
on the whole for most
human beings and we’ll come
to this question more, but I’ll
hint at it now, we are highly involved with our own identity. And that
itself leads to a kind
of selfishness. We are
so insular, so much myopic, myopic meaning that we’re only
self-referencing and we are
brought up many of us to appreciate acts
of kindness and so on
and we like to be kind ourselves, but very often genuine kindness
is rare meaning that
someone gives without any
motive, without any sense that they
want something in return, even a thank you! So they’re quite, someone who gives in the dark
from the dark, just give
without needing to show
their face. There are many
people like that also, but by far
not the majority. Most people want to
be appreciated so when they
do something that is felt to be kind, they want people
to know it is kind. Even people
who pray sometimes they want to pray
that people see them praying and how expressive
we can pray. So this is very,
very difficult one. [I:] So is it, so if someone was, does someone
have to tune in, do they have to
stop and think, do they stop and feel
like how can they say, ‘Wait a second? That’s really selfish.
I may be pretending to
be nice or doing this but I’m actually
trying to just feed my ego.’ [M:] They know it. It’s only
a question of whether you’re open
enough to admit it. [M:] I think
we know and I don’t know if we
give enough time to reflect
upon that, or if it
matters enough for us to stop
and ponder about it. We know and if you
have issues of self-importance, any kind of ego, it will be very,
very difficult to perform a selfless action. [I:] And because
all of us are tainted with at least
just a little ego, if you if you know and if you
force a selfless act just because
you know it is selfless and is that healthy? Is that a good way
to start the momentum of building
the process of selfless behavior? [M:] If it starts
at the place where say
it’s in response to a genuine need, suppose someone
collapses in the street, an elderly person,
or even a young person collapses in the street and then you
may feel to go over and your reflex is say to go. It may not be for
some people reflex, they may
stop and think, even though
there’s no threat to them at all, they may still stop
and if you have a kind of a suspicious mind
you may still think, ‘Maybe it’s somebody’s
faking that they’ve collapsed so that when I get close
they’ll mug me.’ It depends how much
fear is in the mind also, but let’s take it
another step that it has
happened before where you may respond to an obvious
need for help. Say someone has
collapsed in the street and you go over
to help them and say they are smelling of alcohol and looking and then
also sometimes your mind may
give you a lot of trouble like, then people
might think, ‘I am drinking with them,
they are my friend,’ and so on. So we
have a lot of complexities about this. Then sometimes
you genuinely respond to a call for help or a need
to assist and then
it seem it was
very spontaneous and then
your mind says, ‘Aha, you were
very good. Yeah,
very good! Look how
many people saw you. 2 or 3 stars in
your crown today.’ [I:] So does something
like that negate the selflessness of it? Does it then
become a selfish act? [M:] I don’t
want to … No. No. If it is
happened spontaneously that action
in itself is pure. Where people
have difficulty is in the reaction
that comes from the mind when the mind
starts to come and give some
summarization of what
you have done, they have
a lot of trouble with that and it’s very,
very difficult to avoid that. And some people,
in the end, they say, ‘I don’t want to do
anything like this because my mind gives
me a hard time after that.’ [I:] So what
is the … I think most people
have that post event,
post-situation, analyzation
or analysis and interpretation
and summarization. What’s the best
way to treat that voice? What’s the best way to treat
that summary? To ignore it? [M:] To not
listen to it as much. To recognize,
to discern that the action
in itself was good. Assistance was
rendered to someone. It was appreciated;
that was fine. Everything is fine
about that. And don’t
give up because it is the ego
that attacks, but it is the ego
that is attacked also. If you understand this thing,
then you can say, ‘OK. Mind plays
these kind of games’ and you disregard it. Don’t do too much
self-analysis about it and just get
on with your life. Leave it behind! [I:] You talked
briefly about fear or you
mentioned fear like helping
someone in the street and you can get
these fears. What is … because
people I think that’s ultimately, what we’re
trying to get past are our own
fears of failure, our own feel fears of looking like a fool or fears of embarrassment,
all those fears. What is the
best way to deal with those
sensations and emotions as they are
arising in the moment? [M:] I have to be
upfront about it, that we can do
small things. There are
exercises we can do and they
will help. [I:] Can you
start with, to deal
with fear? [M:] Yes. OK. What would
happen if say in response to a cry for help or a situation
where assistance is deeply required? You participate
in that or you’re
pulled to do this but then
fear arises inside that, ‘Maybe I’ll
be attacked by this person who
I’m trying to help, or maybe other people
might take advantage,’ or whatever
the things the mind play. How to go past this.
How does one deal with that? Generally I
would say it is very, there are
exercises that can assist you
to do this. There are
many people who are giving a certain
kind of training like that. But I have to come
straight away and say that almost, well all difficulties
that we experience, whether it is
a fear of rejection or the fear of the lack
of appreciation or whether we are
worthy enough or whatever, all these all different
shades of fears and anxieties, they come to us because we are not actually
sitting in our true place. We are living
from place of a very
wrong identity, limited identity actually. We live primarily in the notion of merely
being our body-mind and conditioning. That is not
our true Self, it is a limited portrait of our completeness. And so because
we live in this very narrow, limited state, then all
of these idiosyncrasies
and strangenesses they come
with that state. And in a deeper level,
I like to introduce that; in a deeper level, what it means
is that because we don’t get it right
at this level and I think it is good that
we don’t get it right at this level, because our
failure at this level to find that
complete state, it stimulates an urge to go more
deeply into exploring into
our nature. If our projections, our idea
of who we are in its limited
portrait was true we would
not grow! There has to
be some aspiration and aspiration
is born out of suffering and
difficulties also. So the deeper question and quest
would be a real search
for completeness, which you
would not find simply by
having a healthy body, it’s a good
start, it’s helpful but it is not
enough by itself. It would have
to be something internal you would
have to back again to the Source of what it is that we are and not just
understand it intellectually but to really experience that directly. From there then things will
begin to come very, very right. [I:] That’s probably
the next two perfect questions. What are we?
What is the Source? What are we
trying to get to and obviously intellectual
understanding is so much
different than direct experience because one is … [M:] You ask what
are we trying to get to? Well actually
whether we are conscious of it
or not our urge is for lasting happiness, for peace, for harmony actually. But not
being aware of that consciously we go
about of it in search of this in so many
different ways and externally
through relationships, through sport, through so many
different activities. And we have
to go through them and then eventually
to discard them to say, ‘Well it’s
not that, it’s not lasting.’ The lasting
peace because it is instinct in us to search
for lasting peace or a joy
that is unbroken, a happiness that
doesn’t fade. There is something,
there’s a pulse inside the human spirit, not just
human spirit but all sentient beings, a search
for life, a clinging
to life and some of us
intuit somehow that life should
be eternal, it has to be
at some level eternal or
timeless or something and this
is the motivating, this is
the drive, the urge, the desire for life in fact, is in search of something
that is that doesn’t fade. First we try
through the senses and the things that
we imagine, through sport and through
relationships and so on and we come
to see that we gain experience, but everything fades like clouds
passing in the sky, they come
and go, everything is
coming and going. At some point, the question
does arise and very often,
very naturally at some stage if your
seeking is earnest life brings it to,
life arranges it for you, that you’ll come
to the next opportunity and it will
be introduced to you
consciously that, so you either
it may happen through some
encounter with someone, it could even
happen through accident, you may just fall
off your bike or something and it shakes something
up deeply enough to stir up some
deeper questions in you. Or you may
find a change in your inner environment, the way in which
you feel and think is beginning
to change and these
steps roll on in front of you,
like that. So, at the heart of even when we
experience fear in life it stimulates
a deeper yearning to go
beyond fear and to find that place of total
rest within us and most human
beings are not aware that such
a thing exists even. We’ve only
tasted it momentarily but in unfadingly few have
experienced this. [I:] What do you think
prevents people from that experience,
that self-awareness? What prevents
the light bulb from turning on from that
moment of mindfulness that disconnection
from the condition, the conditioned behaviour? [M:] We can
offer different answers for this. You ask,
‘What is it that can
help to trigger a longer
lasting if not eternal or permanent recognition of our highest state
of Being. What gets in
the way of that? The Consciousness
that we are temporarily is
wearing this garment of a form,
I would say like this, biological suit for a while
we’re gonna wear it, and in that expression of life it will learn
what it needs to learn through this body. But it also
must go through the experience
of believing that it is
the body for a while and that it
is the conditioning or the programming
that happens inside that body. Only later to then come to
a deeper realization that that
is insufficient, it’s inadequate,
it is not true because these are qualities and
objects that are fading and changing and it
intuitively know that there is
something beyond this. So that
search is actually being driven
by a deeper maybe subconscious
or an unconscious force that drives us to not abandon seeking; life is also seeking. What stops or prevents this switching on of the light of awareness
you may say, of pure
Self-awareness? It can’t
be put in any kind of
mechanical terms. I can say that as soon as we began to function in terms of a human
being and identity and the body
and the life force, we became
addicted to experiencing. We totally love experiencing,
we can’t give it up! On every level,
even the painful it’s part of
the total dynamics of the feel
of experiencing and we
totally love it. And then
we believe it also, the information
that comes through the senses
and the mind and we get
very entangled in that and yet the reality
in us is quite apart from that, it allows a certain
amount of identification to arise
from itself and that
identification arises from itself plays as
a sense ‘I’ inside this body. When you feel
the sense ‘I’ because everyone
refers to them self as ‘I’! It is the most
important word in any language, the feeling of ‘I’
and what it represent. Nobody gave
it to you, the world
and your parents may teach
you every other word but nobody
gave the word ‘I’ to you, the sense ‘I’. It is intuitively arising
with Consciousness and its implication,
it indicates Consciousness. ‘I’ is Consciousness! But when Consciousness
is experiencing through this body, something it is
compelled for a while to identify
with the body and say,
‘I am the body.’ Now this
‘I am the body’ belief, gives rise
to a second name and that is the given name
you take from your family, George, Michael, Luke, Mooji or whatever, is the second name
and that really refers more to your person. The ‘I’ really
refers to a Presence because what we … how we
know our self even before being
taught anything else is through your intuitive awareness
that you exist. And this
‘I exist’ feeling or sense in us arises as
the feeling ‘I am’. And that ‘I’ and ‘Am-ness’ that is our
Being-ness that is our
Consciousness, that’s what
we are actually. But that Consciousness gets in some way
transformed or converted into the notion
of a person, which is
a contraction of it, it is a
limitation of that. But the Consciousness
lives for a while in the notion
of being a person, for some time, until it
is mature enough to begin
to inquire into its original nature. So while we
are in the state of identity
as a person, it is a very
complex state, a very
intense state, full of friction and anxieties because it
is not a stable state. But it is designed
to not be stable because its very
instability provokes a search for
what is stable. And this is
the carrot in the life because you
have to always be aspiring
in order to evolve and to mature. [I:] You talked about experience that we’re constantly seeking experience
in the way you describe it makes it sounds
like an addiction and for lack of a better…
I think that’s what it is, we’re addicted to experience,
we’re addicted to this swaying. Does that
consequentially mean that the way out
or the way through is painful
and through suffering to avoid those
addictive and behavioral and conditioned tendencies? [M:] Pain is one of the avenues, suffering is one
of the opportunities, let me
put it like this, where by Consciousness begins to contemplate itself. Because pleasure
by itself does not promote introspection. So, often difficult,
challenging situations, they trigger more reflective and meditative qualities withing our self. [Silence] I lost your
question a bit. [I:] I was just
asking if pain and suffering
are essential components of enlightenment? [M:] Pain and the suffering are essential
components in life. They have to be there because they generate and promote evolution and maturity in sentient beings;
it has to be there. But it’s not the only
thing that’s there. Also joy
and certain factors which play in us
which are untraceable, we cannot really
go to the trace them they just
seem to be there and they vary
from body to body, they express
themselves in lesser or
greater proportion. We cannot
really quantify or qualify where
they come from, we can
just say that if you
take a group of a hundred
beings randomly you’ll find that there
are different states of mind, different states
of maturity towards Self-knowledge, naturally. But everyone will
have a certain amount of experience,
a certain amount of wisdom. Some may, for a while, believe themselves
to be wise merely because they
use the mind a lot and think a lot. But when you
use the word ‘wisdom’ it really
refers more that knowledge based
upon experience and insight. And these
are powerful powers and abilities
within the human psyche that are not
so deeply explored and especially
in our Western lives
so much, meditation inquiry and faith and trust, all these aspects of human expression. [I:] What would be … What would
you tell … What is advice
for people that need to have
a healthier relationship with that inevitable pain and
suffering in life? Is their a healthy
way to manage it? Is their a healthier
way to deal with it? [M:] The healthiest
way I can tell you is to become
silent and empty. It’s not immediately
appealing to the mind because we are used to
going to get tools to fix things. So we have
really lost out on the opportunity and the guidance to become
inwardly silent, empty because
our outer coaching and conditioning does not
put much value on say meditation
or on stillness. We put a lot of value
on time and money, but on silence and peace
and emptiness we rarely
talk about that. We’re even a little
bit scared about it, even uncomfortable
about it and yet
in each one at some
point in your day you have
to go to this place of total emptiness. You can say,
‘Thank God for sleep,’ because it is life, nature, God gives you
that opportunity for 8 hours, almost as full as
your waking hours, to be
completely nobody and to be
completely empty of intention,
of identity, of activity, all of that! And guess what, if we
have to guess, we all love it! We love to be for these hours
sometimes 8 hours, some for
people 10 hours to be
nothing and nobody and have no job,
have no association. In your
waking state you might be
a husband, or an engineer, but in deep
sleep you’re nobody. You may have 10 children
in your waking state, but in deep sleep you’re nobody.
You have no one! You’re not…
even you, you don’t have! And we don’t go
into that state screaming, ‘Oh! Please
don’t let me go there.’ No. We totally
love it. We buy
the best bed to ensure
that we can forget about everything! So if
we do that unconsciously or compelled
by nature, we can also
enjoy some of that state in the waking
state also. I don’t mean that
you’re walking around snoring. I’m saying that there’s a still,
a silence in us that is there
in deep sleep that is also
present in our waking state and as
we get more, this is where
meditations and this
type of guidances help
human beings to be aware of themselves as Consciousness rather than
merely as bodies. Not only as a body
and not only as personality but also
as Consciousness and the more
we discover this, this field
of infinite potential in ourselves, the more it doesn’t
lead to us becoming, ‘Oh! we have so
many, much more to do,’ in fact you feel,
‘I have so much to Be, I just ‘Am’.’ The feeling
of Am-ness is the most
powerful discovery in the human kingdom. [I:] Fantastic! What do you
think when you say because this
is a quote, you said, ‘You are
living a dream.’ What do you
mean by that statement, ‘You are
living a dream?’ [M:] I rarely utter
this type of thing. And not
just publicly. I would not
say it just to someone really off the street,
You’re living a dream. They would not
know what you’re talking about. So it would
be a very, very silly and unfair and also it would
not be … people would not comprehend
what you’re talking about. Some time
in life we’re joking and we say, ‘Ah!
You’re dreaming man!’ So we understand
like this we play, we don’t go much
more deeply into that but the fact is
there is a lot of truth in that. If I say
the world is a dream,
I don’t mean that I’m looking
at these flowers, Oh, they are
a dream, in this kind of way, let them
be as they are. What it
means that we are dreaming is that we’re not
suffering from the world in it’s natural manifestation. Things are
neither good or bad they just are there.
What we … That’s not the world
we experience though, our experience
of the world is our psychological approach to life. Our judgements and anxieties, visions and fears, our attachments
and so on that’s what we’re experiencing
like that and in each unit
of consciousness if you
take a body to be a certain mindset will determine
the strength of our experiencing. If you are
someone who is very, very much full
of judgements towards others, then the way that
you experience life is that’s going to have
a strong effect upon how you experience
your existence. And so from
the totality perspective what you’re
experiencing is not true, is not Truth. It might be true that that’s
how it feels for you, but it’s not Truth that it can
be relied upon, because if
something is True it has to be
true for everyone. We are experiencing, it has been said
before it’s a saying that say, ‘I am not
seeing the world as it is, I am seeing
the world as I am.’ So if you are
someone who is full of psychological noise, the world
you will perceive would seem
very, very noisy. If you’re someone
who is full of love the world
you’ll see and the way you’ll meet beings will be full
of love also. The reading
is not out there, like I’m
looking at my hand, my hand
is not looking at me. And when
I see the hand it’s there, but
where I experience it is inside myself. So the world
is shaped through
our interpretation and through our vision, our
projections, our interpretations, all of this
colors the way in which
we experience life. So that’s
why I say, from that perspective
it is not a Truth. And so
people say, ‘Well, my truth
and your truth,’ but these are just
very relative things. When we speak of Truth
we’re talking about something much more
fundamental than that, something
which is consistant and unavoidable
in every single being, that’s what
we speak. [I:] What are
some of the tangible effects
and consequences of the journey, like when you get
to discovering the ‘I’, when you finally understand
that ‘I’, that Consciousness? What are some of the ways
that life is different? What are some
of the things that change? What do people
have to look forward to? [M:] Most of
the change happen in you because sometimes the people,
when the change has occurred, when the realization
happen in them they say,
‘Wow! The life is so fantastic! So beautiful and Ah! And everything
is working so well! And I think of somebody;
they show up! So, it’s
is amazing!’ But it was
always like that. It has always
been like that! It’s just that
it’s now your turn to see
it like that, but it has
always been like that! But we
say because you’re new
to it now you say, ‘Oh my God!
It started then,’ but it is
timelessly like that. So also all anxieties and such things
like depression and fears
they go. Your heart
becomes very quiet, very peaceful. You discover
a happiness that doesn’t
go away! You become clear, so clear inside that you cannot come
to the end of you. You know this,
you don’t believe this now. You know it!
I don’t know how to tell you. You know it!
You just know it! Just like
if you fall in love, you don’t have
to read a book about love or read a dictionary,
you know it is love! You don’t need
someone else’s opinion about it. In the same
way, we know inside that what is here
is beyond merely the body-mind expression,
you just know it! And what will change? The way in which you
relate to existence to other beings,
that will change, if it was not
already beautiful. It will become
more beautiful, more wise,
more open. You’ll feel more
gratitude in your heart for life
and for the senses and for everything! For the use
of a mind and the powers
to discern and it will be just incomparably beautiful! [I:] What do people
need to understand? What do
people need to learn to find happiness? [M:] They need to,
first of all, recognize that they are not
merely their bodies nor their thoughts. They need
to know this thing. Not just
believe it! Maybe believe it,
or maybe hear it or sometimes you
may meet someone whose presence exudes
a natural conviction and response
in you that is nothing intellectual, that is
purely at a pulse, at a heart
level inside you and triggers a flowering of deeper understanding. It can happen
very spontaneously, magically like that, but for many people
it starts in a very seemingly simple, coincidential
kind of way, where they
meet someone and maybe you’re given
a book, you start to read
and it triggers some reflections
within yourself and you begin
to ponder on something and then
the next thing happen is that you meet
someone and it seems, ‘Oh my gosh! I was just
reading about this book and it’s written by you or your cousin.’ It seems
like these beautiful coincidences
are happening, but what
is happening is that as you come
more and more towards synchronicity,
internally, the world
begins to reflect its harmony to you and you
begin to recognize it and as
you recognize it you say,
‘Oh my God! How is it possible,
I mean it’s… I didn’t
make this up, it just
happened like this,’ and so
you begin to enjoy the wonder
of life and the amazing spontaneity and grace and benevolence
of the existence. So these are
very, very attractive for the intelligent Being. [I:] So this
is actually a question for myself. For people that are creative I mean everyone is
seeking creative expression, everyone wants to act, but is there right
way to work hard without being
addicted to it or what’s
the way to approach work and ambition
and entreprenial ventures and creativity? Because I kind of
bunch all those together in a way. So is
there a way, how do I
frame the question, because we find peace, there’s
stillness, but yet we’re constantly striving to create? So is there
a balance? Is there a mindset? Is it action without expectation? [M:] I am hoping that in us
talking like this and those,
whoever would listen, will feel a sense
of openness towards that inner journey. Even the openness
is already a step and then you start
to be pulled in by some force to bring
you more closely. I am mentioning
this again because rather than giving
lots of little techniques about how
to do things because we’re very much a
‘how-to-do’ specie; we begin
to discover our Being-ness
is already containing so much like everything much. And there’s nothing
more creative actually than that Source
place inside our self, it creates all
of this, all of these things, all these
colors, it didn’t spare, Didn’t say, ‘Oh! There’s too much
yellow, I’ll put in another …’ It creates
all this beauty out of its silence it
comes out of it. And yet… and this
is the direction to go because the
other if we are going only on the basis
of being a person and becoming famous
and doing all these things it is wrought
with effort and struggle
and competitiveness and need and
this kind of … and it’s not
beautiful at that level. You want
to create, create something beautiful. And where’s beautiful,
how is something beautiful created, out of beautiful
being also. Now I know
that sometimes people are experiencing very deep
and traumatic feelings and out
of this deep traumatic, and inner environment, they produce
beautiful things also. So we cannot
limit it and just say, ‘Only when you’re feeling beautiful
you make beautiful things.’ Creativity is not
about making things, in fact creativity is intelligent existence is being creative. When you
meet someone and you meet
them in spontaneity that is highly
creative actually. When you’re open
that is very creative because
you’ve not come with an intention, your intention
is not so fixed, you come
with an openness to see what
is the possibilities what may happen. This is the most
exciting one! If we have
just intention, ‘I want to do
and do and do,’ in a way
your room is closed. But if you come
and you explore and you see
where it’s going and you enjoy also. And in joy
you feel a natural
gratitude for life, you’re praising,
your work is praising, your attitude
is praising life in fact. This is
beautiful creativity. [I:] It’s hard because the inspiration
comes from a deep sense of intuition, it’s definitely something
beyond thought, it’s a feeling. But then society teaches
us to keep chasing, keep pushing, keep
pushing, keep pushing and how do we know
whether that suffering and that pain is part of the process
or if that suffering and pain is partly
trying to feed off… [M:] Yes. It is part
of a process, it can produce it can produce a certain skill but it rarely produce brilliance. Often the brilliance it’s so
humble because it comes
out of emptiness and when something
comes out of emptiness you cannot
take a claim for it. This is
the amazing thing, that you come
to a certain place where you
go beyond self-control,
you come into total Being-ness and from there it’s like
the universe is dancing through this body. Now we’d like to be able
to bottle that and say, ‘Yes, yes. This is
what I want to hold and turn it, turn on
the tap at will.’ But what it shows you
is that when you’re in atunement or synchronicity with the Being-ness, then this is your
natural day your natural,
what maybe for someone
a spark is your continuous and timeless Being, for someone
it’s only a spark, a little spark
because mostly we are living
with this notion that, ‘Yes, yes. I do this
and do and do,’ and then
somehow a spark comes and it’s like you
want to give everything for this spark
because, you know, it is totally effortless and also
it is without identity, it is totally Divine! It’s this Divine
spark you want. Isn’t it? [I:] What … because a very small
percentage of this
planet ever feels that Divine spark. Is it or maybe a very
small percentage would act
on that Divine spark? What prevents
other people from the calling,
from answering the call, that Divine spark? Is it just fear?
What is it? [M:] Ignorance, arrogance, too much desire, too much attachment and being attached
to your attachments. All this brings
in a kind of blindness, a kind
of heaviness, that you
work, but you strain and struggle and toil and labor. Actually that
Divine spark is you! But you
don’t know it! Everyday we are experiencing, but we’re
not conscious of it, we are
not aware of it. We only know
it as a kind of blast like, ‘Puff! Whoa!’ People say, ‘What’s happening?’
And just can’t say. ‘Oh!’ How can you explain
such joy or such bliss? [I:] It’s a very
good way of looking at it. I think
I’ve actually covered all
of the bases that I wanted to cover.
Do you wanna add anything like for people that
have never meditated, for people
that are so conditioned?
[M:] Yes! I want to show
them something simple that anyone can do. I want
to show you a simple way to get back in harmony
with yourself. Now, everybody feels
the sense ‘I’, the ‘I am’
just a feeling ‘I am’. You know
of your existence, you know
you exist. OK? So this
feeling, ‘I exist,’ or the sense
‘I am’, when you say ‘I’ that’s what
it really refers to, so I would
ask them just spend
7 minutes or so, just sit
quietly for a little bit and just
feel the sense of Being-ness, just the sense
‘I’ or ‘I am’ sense is there. There’s no story in it,
there’s no history, it’s not important that you think
of yourself as a man or a woman, or that you
are a meditator. None of these
things helpful, everyone can do it! So just a feeling
of Being-ness. Once you are
aware of how simple it is, just a feeling
of Being, like if you had nothing to do, nothing to become,
nothing to change, nothing to fix,
nothing at all! Just you’re here and no
thought about what you’re doing that simple
empty space just be there. Just the feeling that
you know you exist. It’s like a quality
of Presence. Just stay in that
feeling of Presence and don’t
allow it to connect up with any
thought or intention or any form. Just keep it by itself, leave it there. Now, some thoughts
are going to come and some habits to go and to
start to think about sending an email
or something like that, but if
they come you’re not
to fight with them, simply be
aware of them, but just stay
as the feeling ‘I am’. The feeling
‘I am’ is just like a space, that if you do anything
in space it doesn’t stay. If I draw a face
in space it doesn’t stay. So they
just appear and they disappear, but you stay
only as that space, just that
awareness space. In the beginning
it might become very difficult,
might feel very difficult
to do, but persist, do 7 minutes. OK? And maybe
even if it feels, ‘Wow! That was
so … It was so tiring!’ because in the
beginning it can feel tiring because you’re trying … you’re not trying
to become something you’re trying
to prevent somebody from taking
your attention away – the mind. So you just
stay like this. And you
do it again when you
want and gradually you’ll be
able to stay even though
thoughts and noise come and say, ‘Oh my God!
There’s even more noise than before
is coming.’ But don’t give up. And after
a short time you’re going to
discover something very, very beautiful! You’re going
to discover a silence
in yourself a peace, a sense
of vastness. And you’re gonna
become so happy, so, so happy! And just keep on
staying in this space whenever you want,
7 minutes minimum, just sit
there like this. And you
can do this before you go
to bed in the night, but not
when you’re tired or in the
morning is nice, when you get up
to sit for a few minutes and just clarify your mind,
just keep it clean and then go about your business,
do what you want to do. Just do this and keep it
going for maybe a week or 2 weeks is good. And see what … then you may
write to me and tell me if your life
has changed or not. This will
be something that is not to do with
any particular religion or nothing,
anybody can do it! The atheists
can do it, the believer
can do it, the karma yogi
can do it, the jnana yogi
can do it, bhakti yogi
can do it, all and anybody, people who
know nothing about yoga, meditation, religion, nothing at all, they can do this! And it will bring
you to the same place. It’s the most beautiful Self discovery. Just that!
Just this nothing. No special terms, no special so impressive
spiritual terminology, just stay in the
feeling of Being. And when
thoughts come to take
your attention like that, just stay,
learn to ignore them. At first it’s going
to be very difficult, it’s like, the worst
are gonna come, they going to create
fears in the mind. But you only have to stay as that feeling. Then after
your 7 minutes you get up
and go about, do your thing. And then if somebody
wants to say something, maybe they write
to you, like this, Luke and tell
you about this, and what
happened in their life. Because I think
it will touch on all the things that
we talked about today. It will touch on
all those things, it will satisfy all
those questions in them. [I:] Thank you.
[M:] Thank you so much. [Music] When you
go beyond self control… you come into
total being-ness .. and from there
it’s like the universe is dancing
through this body This is the full
version interview taken by Luke Sniewski
for the episode ‘Before I Am’ which can
be watched at



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